Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

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Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  pannathorn e on Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Needless to say, the social presence of men and women are completely different, as Berger has mentioned in his book Ways of Seeing, “Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” Women, the surveyed, therefore treat themselves as objects of vision: a sight (47). This difference in social presence, I think, is what determined that women are the ones that are painted – to be witnessed by spectators, which in most cases are men. Nudity is in a way symbolic of this difference, it is evident in the paintings shown on page 49 which displays the subject’s (woman) awareness in being seen. The painting of Nell Gwynne by Lely is another example which shows a woman’s sign of submission to the owner’s feelings or demands because she’s naked for the spectator not herself (52). This idea of being owned further emphasised the treatment of women as an object or a sight. Berger’s quote “the ‘ideal’ spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the woman is designed to flatter him” (64) concludes the impression of this difference in social presence between men and women. It reflects an image in my mind: of a painting of a ‘naked’ woman, her gaze or gesture addressing a male spectator, most likely a stranger, with his ‘clothes on’, thus portraying a clear contrast between the status of men and women in society.

Berger, John. Ways of seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Reading Response

Post  Chittranuch Napawan on Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:52 pm

This chapter helps me understand better about the difference between nakedness and nudity as the author suggests “to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.” (p.53) I totally agree with the sentence: “She is not naked as she is. She is naked as the spectator sees her.” (p.50) If you stay alone in your room without clothes on, do you feel the nakedness? For me, the nakedness does not come to consideration until another person sees you naked, and that leads to embarrassment or the awareness of how that person see you and judge you. While ‘naked’ involves a lot of judgment and feelings, ‘nudity’ tends to concentrate more on beauty and the sight of the spectator. “A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude…Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display.”(p.54) Nudity seems to be more idealistic, comparing to nakedness, because it depends on how the spectator wants to display the subject. As we can see on the painting ‘Baccuhus, Ceres and Cupid’ by Von Aachen, although there is a male lover in the picture, “the woman’s attention is very rarely directed towards him…she looks out of the picture towards the one who considers himself her true lover — the spectator-owner.” (p. 56)

Personally, I like nude paintings from the old times more than nude pictures from the present. The exceed amount of flesh, which make the women look fatter than normal, and the over lighting that emphasize the tenderness of body skin, make the women look softer and sweeter, and I think this is the true beauty that men should look at. In comparison to some modern pictures from chapter 2 (p.40-41), woman bodies are used as a tool for other intentions such as advertisement. This involves more sexual feelings and it obscures the beauty.

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response ch 3-4

Post  Praj on Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:11 pm

According to the reading, Chapter 3-4, Men and Women are equal but in the passage the feeling that both sex express are different, from the quote “A men presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies.”(p.45), “The social presence of woman has developed as a result of their ingenuity in living under such tutelage within such a limited space.”(p.46). It does imply that men express the feeling of power and dependent, Women are express under the men power. In some point I think this leading to the past that men have the power over all, but men always have women that like a supporter.

“Nude” as it a topic in this chapter, I think the nude art is the way that artist show out the real feeling under their mind without others medium (clothes), the feeling that act out without irrelevant factor. “Nakedness was created in the mind of the beholder.”(p.48) the nakedness, if we can think over it we will see the true beauty of the nude art, “to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.”(p.53).Example, “Adam and Eve” from page 49, as we saw that were both man (Adam) and woman (Eve) if we look at this picture with the issue of sex, male and female will properly end up with the different idea of the meaning of what it try to express. But if we think over the sex or any external factors the meaning of what the art work try to express out should in the same direction.

For the conclusion, I can simply say that sex and irrelevant factor are one of the big affect when we trying to find the meaning of the art. Without thinking about those interference the way of seeing will be more interesting.
geek

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Chapter 3-4 response

Post  Thanyaporn Janma on Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:16 pm

As we can see in first picture in chapter 3 "Reclining Bacchanate"(Tbutat.1824-1848.45) it shows how the man and the woman act toward each other. This picture also shows the power of the man who can look at her body closely and the woman who should know but not try to do anything. Also the facial expression of woman is not happy or sad but it like she always treat in this way. However, woman’s action and man’s action always lead to the meaning of the painter “Men act and women appear”(Berger.47) most of the picture will concentrate on the woman which can be in front of the man or at the center of the painting by has a man watching at the back or at the side. The way the painter placing each character is mostly depends on the society in that time because society can affect the way they think which is men are the most powerful. That is the reason why they place the woman in the center as the object and has a man looking at the object by the man are the one who control the emotion and the meaning of the painting.

Another picture which is “Les Oreadess”(Bouguereau.1825-1905.57) in this picture men were placing at the edge of the picture and the women were placing like a pyramid shape. This picture also show the power of men among the women by their action which is just sit and watch the women in the group. Moreover, to sit in a group it can mean to discuss thing which is women.

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Reading Response (2)

Post  Chittranuch Napawan on Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:43 pm

I strongly agree with Prechaya’s response as she said “All females want to look good in male's sight, no exception.” Berger suggests the difference between male and female presence, “…men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.”(p.47), which I do agree, however, nowadays I can see that men also have become more aware about their appearance and women also get the right to judge men’s appearance along with their acts. This shows the development of sexual equality. Although “this unequal relationship is so deeply embedded in our culture that it still structure the consciousness of many women.”(p.63), our society is slightly changing bits by bits as time flows.

It would be interesting if we actually try to do the experiment on the last paragraph of chapter 3. In a lot of male nude paintings, the man in the picture usually not looking out to the spectator. This is probably because “the ‘ideal’ spectator is always assumed to be male” (p.64). Instead of drawing fat wealthy-flesh men, like what they usually draw women as I mentioned on my previous response, male nude seems to emphasize more on muscular and a perfect body shape. If we transform the traditional women nude into men, I don’t think it would be a pleasure to watch.

Berger, John. Ways of seeing; . London: British Broadcasting Corporation;, 1972. Print.

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Chapter 3&4 response

Post  Grape Nalintragoon on Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:56 pm

After I finished the book, I clearly understood the difference between Nudity and Nakedness in artistic way. According to book exemplify the legend painting of Adam and Eva, eating Apple in Eden garden, makes it more obviously that how the human sight changed in sexual way. They saw each other differently by their inner feeling of "the mind of the beholder."(48) Therefore, it turns usual nudity into nakedness. As kannawat states ‘the definition of nudity and naked’ in his comment at the third paragraph that "Nudity is a form of dress"(54) this quote makes a clear definition of nudity. For me to be nude is like wearing a mask or clothes which is like acting but being naked is different, being naked is more like to "reveals itself."(54)” this is what I thought the same way of him and Berger. Another point I have to agree with Sirada about nakedness and nudity of women in European paintings comparing between ‘Venus by Titian’ and ‘Olympia and Le Dejeuner Sur L’Herbe’ by Edouard Manet. , as shown in the book of Berger in page 63. Mentioned, “The unequal relationship is so deeply embodded in our culture that it still structures the consciousness of many women their own femininity.” Result in the artists began to question themselves in it. They painted the same pose of woman laying in comfortable act, starring at the painter (was described in lecture class in Manet biography on Aug, 16th 2011.). Although the two paintings are likely the same, the paintings are expressing considerably different. In Venus painting, her facial expression is more expressing in a powerful way because of the Goddess state. It seems to be a symbolic of authority, superior to human. While in Manet’s painting, the ordinary woman with cordial eyes looking straight to the viewers. Her pose is more relaxing and more realism. So this is the idea which the author trying to illustrate us.
It also reminds me of Paul Gaugain’s paintings in last lecture class (on Aug, 23rd 2011.) about Tahiti girls act regularly in their daily life. For example ‘Arearea, 1892’, ‘Fatata te Miti, 1892’, ‘Contes Barbares, 1902’ and Nevermore, O Tahiti, 1897’ (Global Art History: Fall 2010, Slide 35-40). Those paintings consist of women wearing nothing or few clothes because of their typical local culture. This is also can be called ‘nudity’ as defined in Berger’s book; it said, “Nudity is placed on display. To be naked is to be without disguise…Nudity is a form of dress.”(54). So we see his paintings with human and surrounding harmoniously and we did not focus on only women body. The paintings we saw did not make us feel awkward or too much expose on feminine physiques but more in situations and their lifestyles.

Berger, J. (1972). Ways of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Cop.
Lamar, C. (2010). Departing the birth of Modern Art, Global Art History Fall 2010. Retrieved August 27, 2011 from Global Art History SecondClass.pdf.

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Chapter 3-4

Post  Nattaphat on Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:46 pm

I'm interested in the way Berger pointed the differences between men and women's presence. "A man's presence suggests what he is capable of doing to you or for you" (p.46) while "a woman's presences expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her".(p.46). A man's appearance displays what he can do. For example, a strong, muscular man are capable of using more strength, while a slimmer one are capable of running faster. On the other hand, a woman's appearance influences what will be done to her. Sometimes men judge women and the way to treat them by appearance, since men also judge each other by appearance.

"If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others. If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger" (p.47). I agree with the statement that women are restricted about what they do more than men do, which is sometimes quite unfair. Women have to aware of what they express because they will be treated according to their presences.

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Response Chapter 3-4

Post  chanaporn sutharoj on Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:11 pm

From my understanding of Berger’s statement “Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated” (p.46), man will act on woman depend on their appearing. This clearly show how society between women and men at those period. Men have more chance to choose than women and women can only behave well to be treated well. This refer to a quote “men act and women appear”, (p.47) which means women has no right to choose or act but only to behave and appear. More over in an order to get treated well, women have to treat themselves well too. If the first woman appears soft and polite, a man will be gentle and acts kind to her. But if the second woman appears bad and emotionally, a man will treat her the different way from the first woman. This can show how woman represent themselves is important for the treated they will get in return.

I also agree with Banyaporn, “If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others. If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger,” (p.47) shows how woman treat the object related to how men treated women. A broken glass refer to a women when got treated. The equalization between men and women at that time is different from now. Nowadays the right between women and men are equal. Woman has chance to choose a man. So women now get more chance to act than in the past and men got more chance to worry about how they are going to appear to women than in the past.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: Penguin, 2008.


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Chapter3-4

Post  Punnarungsi Temswaenglert on Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:07 pm

According to Berger said “men survey women before treating them” (p.46) this is so true, every acting that women make will effect man though how to treat that person and put woman under control. In another side, “Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at…Thus she turns herself into an object”(p.47) which the object mean no choices. This passage might not work in nowadays women and man is equal. For example, Micah is the boss and he want to ask Leah out (Leah is Micah’s secretary) if in the past woman equal object so she have to do whatever boss said but today Leah can make a decision that she want to go out with him or not.

According from the bible the first nudes begin in Genesis, first thing happened after Adam and Eve ate apple from the tree of knowledge “And the eyes of them both were open opened, and they knew that they were naked…”(p.47), their see each other different. The second thing is woman blamed everything to man but the fact is it woman fault that why women lives under man.

“The Nude Kenneth Clark maintains that to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art”(p.53). “To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself”(54). Both passages affected my ideas that naked and nude are so closed to describe, it depend on how a person view the image. If I went to art gallery and I see photography of one-woman look at the person and don’t wear any cloth, sexy post also see every detail in her body. I would call that picture as naked not a type of art.
After I read chapter 3-4 and listen the lectured during the class, I realized that I would love to see women nude more than man nude because women body have more curly shape and many interested view. In other hand, man body is more straight line and strong with pack of macular-which make me scared more than fascinating.



Berger, John. Ways of seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Response Chapter 3&4

Post  Chanya on Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:39 pm

Chapter 3 discusses about woman and how they were one of the central aspects in classical art. In classical art, a nude woman often appears to be the main subject of the painting. Nudity is presented along with nakedness. I began to doubt between the differences of both words. Berger wrote “A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude”(p54). Nudity is revealed as a form of art and the beauty of the female body while nakedness is viewed as women with no clothes.

“The Venus of Urbino” by Titian is a fine example of pure nudity in classical art. This painting suggests the beauty of a Goddess and how she is glazing outward into the eyes of the painter. She is calm and peaceful. On the other hand, the painting “Olympia” by Manet suggests a revolutionary approach in depicting the female figure in art. “The ideal was broken”(p.63) as said by Berger. Manet compares Venus with a prostitute. Even though both paintings have the same subject matter, which is a nude female figure, the overall mood distinct from one another. Olympia’s expresses nudity in a strong and harsh way to the viewer. She depicts a facial expression of ignorance unlike Venus who is passionate and relaxed.

Berger , John . Ways of Seeing . London : British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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response to ch.3-4

Post  winida mahachaiwanit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:51 pm

As I read more and more on “Way of seeing – by John Berger” I realize that people look before they get to know each other, they judge what is outside before what is inside. Like when he mention on how men act to women “Men survey women before treating them”(Pg.46) and that women are like object that need to be served to men. "Woman has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men, is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life" (page 46). It seem unfair for women on how she all have to be treated, if you’re beautiful of course it will be fine, but how about if she is ugly, how would she be treated? As a woman, I feel that both men and women should have equal rights to look at each other or on how to treat one another.

Also for the word nude, in my opinion I think its award but when I read this book, Berger mention that “nude is a form of art" (page 53) and as I read and look through the picture I realize that painters put feeling into these nude women and make them not ugly but what calls, Art.

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Response

Post  Soraya on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:20 pm

Berger gives distinguishes between nakedness and nudity and explain it in complex ways that are related to art. According to Berger, nude in art is an object to be viewed by the audience. However, naked isn’t about art at all. In the past, artist use nudity in art not because of its beauty but for sexual pleasure. This is not different from nowadays: you still can see nudity and sexuality in every kind of media: internet, television, music, etc. It tells me that people didn’t change from the past at all. Visual nudity in the contemporary world manifests itself in the form of pornography, a type media which is intended for sexual pleasure. In most cases, the actor is shown passion in 'sexual intercourse.' In my understanding, in past, most painting the object (women) is looking at viewer. It seems like the audience are communicating with the object. In present, the media show people having sex together and we just watch that 'copulation' as sexual pleasure.

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Response "Ways of seeing" chapter 3-4

Post  Nutrada Syncharoen on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:35 pm

In chapter three and four of the book “Ways of seeing”, John Berger says that women are viewed as an object not only by men but also by themselves. As it was stated in page 47, “One might simplify this by saying: men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. … The surveyor of women in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object- and most particular an object of vision: a sight.” The social creates men to be powerful which empowers everything, especially women. By this, men are lookers while women look at themselves being looked at.
When traditional paintings comes in action, painting women figures became popular. As a result artists are influences painting naked women. In contrast, the early period manipulate the art of nakedness in a different way called nudity.
“Women are depicted in quite different way from men- not because the feminine is different from masculine- but because the ‘ideal’ spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the women is designed to flatter him”( Berger J, page 64) In conclusion, I agree with what Berger said. We live in a hyper real world where we all are created by the social influence to be something. As a male, the social views them as powerful no matter how they looked. And female are created to be judge, ‘like an object’, by the social.



Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Respond #2

Post  Nattakritta Lertpunyaroj on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:53 pm

From chapter 3 and 4, I agree that people view men and women differently. People view a man from “moral, physical, temperamental, economic, social, sexual” (45) and woman from their “gesture, voice, opinions, expressions, clothes, chosen surroundings…”(46) Men and women view things differently too. “One might simplify that by saying: men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” (47) Most of the previous comments said that now men and women are equal. I would disagree with that, people still do not treat everyone equally, it just better than before. They might act differently to people who are in different countries, different skin colors-races, culture, gender and etc…

I also understand more about the differences between these two words: nude and naked. “Kenneth Clark maintains that to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.” (53) For me, nude is developed from naked. The subject might just be a naked women, but the way those women was painted could make them become nude.

In these days, nude still can be seen everywhere from different media. I agree that “the essential way of seeing women, the essential use to which their images are put, has not changed” (64) Most of spectators would still be men and images are designed to flatter him.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Response chapter 3-4 Nitiwath

Post  Nitiwath on Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:12 pm

What do you see in women? Do you think only men look women? Does women know what we are thinking or seeing within them? All this questions are actually answered in the chapter 3 & 4 of the book ways of seeing by Berger. It has been mentioned “Women are depicted in quite different way from men- not because the feminine is different from masculine- but because the ‘ideal’ spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the women is designed to flatter him” (64). To answer another question the book also mentioned “One might simplify this by saying: men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. …Thus she turns herself into an object- and most particular an object of vision: a sight” (47). Having me saying all this, it’s obvious that I am agreeing with John B. Not only agreeing with the idea of women as object, but also the idea of nudity and naked as he said “A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude” (54). I do believed that women are not just any ordinary objects but their body actually depicts the images of art itself.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Response Chapter 3-4

Post  Napat Neampinij on Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:58 pm

According to the book Berger's compared the different in thought between male and female. Later on about the point of naked and nude. Chapter 3-4 also show the link of human thought with the painting of all naked and nude, trying to represent it by using the looks of human body in the painting.

"A man's presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies." (p45). Refer to the sentence about a man thought Berger try to give an ideas about the promise that a man would made. There different level of promise that a man would do and this depend on how important it is. A man would kept and do his promise the best that he can even though it seems to be worthless. Compairing This to the presence of woman "...a woman's presence express her own attitudes to herself and defines what can and cannot be done to her." (p46). This seems to show that a woman is more complicated, and can't be judge from just her attitude or emotion.

Naked and nude when people talk about it will be something in sexual way, but there are difference in it. "Nakedness reveals itself" as "Nudity is placed an display" (p54). From what I see here nakedness would show or reflect itself, but nudity would be something that would be judge by someone else. So, looking at those painting it is showing the nudity instead of naked and reflecting a human nature.

Overall, these text seems to be a bit negative for woman. This depend on the author point of view, but along the text there are many different point of view in which woman are different from a man.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Chapter 3-4 Global Art History Response

Post  Vasinth Ratanaphaithun on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:10 pm

Through the first several pages of the chapter, the context explains some basic characteristics of the presence of two genders and how they react to each other. Apparently, I find it quite true to Berger's statement that
"Women are depicted in a quite different way from men - not because the feminine is different from the masculine - but because the 'ideal' spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the woman is designed to flatter him" (p.64)

I feel that it reflects psychologically to the modern today and to every heterosexual because generally men are the 'surveyor' and are drawn to seek relationships with the opposite sex, while women are the 'surveyed', the ones being watched or the target, which thus proves to another point that women's behavior is constantly being aware of her self-image and reputation ("She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others... is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life"(p.46)).

The chapter also gave an understanding of the difference between nakedness and nudity. Berger defined nakedness as the revealing/undress oneself; "to be without disguise" (p.54), whereas nudity is a form of artistic display. This supports to Kenneth Clark's book The Nude, where "a nude.. is a way of seeing which the painting achieves" (p.53). The book has also mentioned that nudity was derived from nakedness, in which the "naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude" (p.54). From my understanding from the book, nudity is a kind of disguise, in which our body is similar to a dress. However, I find it confusing and pointless how the book defines the term 'nude'. I personally find a bare difference between nakedness and nudity.

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Response

Post  Donrawat on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:41 pm

From my point of view, i agree with the author that men and women are different when they look at things. It could be said that men are the viewer or looker and the one who are looked are women. Women also look at themselves. I think that is the reason why they always make them selves look good in others' views. We also look differently when we look at these gender. For example, when we look at men we look at his capability and acting but women at thier attitude and apperance. John berger conclude that as "Men act and women appear" (47)

I think that the reason john berger compare the nakedness and nudity is becasue he want to show the reader the different that the artist show in thier painting. For the reason why the painter paints women in a nudity or being naked is because they want to express thier perspectives on women and how they are being kept under the clothes.

I think the reason why most of the naked or nude painting are women because it would be wierd if they are men. Cause men are the viewers not the object that meant to be looked. Cause men will not look at men. But they will looked at nude or naked women. The reason why there still are paints of naked men because the painter want to show his capability or human body rather than their appeals.

Berger, John. Ways of seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Reading Response Chapter 3 and 4

Post  Panitnaat on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:43 pm

The main subject of Chapter 3 is mostly about how women are viewed and depicted in arts, especially nude arts.

Berger mentioned the differences of man’s and woman’s presence. The man’s presence is “dependant upon the promise of power which he embodies” (45) while the woman’s presence depends on her attitude and her appearance. This is simply “men act and women appear” (46). The woman must survey herself and be surveyed as everything about her, whether is it her actions or appearance, will “determine how she will be treated” (46).

The difference between naked and nude can actually be easily explained by the European paintings where woman is more viewed as a sexualized figure (nude) rather than an unclothed being (naked). Actually, Berger even said that a woman is “not naked as she is” but she will be naked “as the spectator sees her” (50), thinking about her shame from being seen naked. Most nude arts are done because the spectator, the artist, “enjoyed looking at her” (51) or should I say for self pleasure. Berger explained that the woman in the paintings despite having someone besides her or not, will always gaze at the spectator. The spectator feels this pleasure from being looked at and being the reason of the woman’s actions.

It’s interesting how much nude arts evolved since the 18th century because the women in the paintings become stronger and independent on the painter. Woman with clothes on can even be viewed as a nude; Rubens’s painting can be a very great example of this. As of Modernism period, nude arts are less idealized but more realistic (perhaps naked); compare Titian’s painting to Manet’s Olympia, it is clearly seen that the woman in the painting is naked for different reasons now, one is naked to show off her beauty while the other is naked for sexualizing.

I actually felt a little bit awkward upon knowing that woman is usually sexualized before you know her potential (some men don’t even care about it) all the time and these paintings really explain this idea clearly. But it can’t be helped as her figure is usually a pleasure to paint for many painters.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Response to Chapter 3 & 4

Post  Phurich on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:19 pm

What does Nudity means? Is it only a pleasurable act of sexual desire? or Is it a meaningful messages from a philosophical image? Ridiculously, people often nudity them as a Sexual subject. It is really depends on how we view it, or how we interpreted the meaning inside the image we have seen. Berger stated "You painted naked woman because you enjoy looking at her, you put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting Vanity" (Pg. 51) Actually, that would be called a cheap interpretation. Berger stated the function of the mirror that it was there to convey the woman to connive herself. Artists always have the reason to paint.
Women, as the subject of nudity, have always been portray in uncountable paintings during the Baroque . Berger explained that Women are expressive subject. The women' presences are what capable of expressing vary subjects. However, the man presence often conveys only on the power that he attained.

I want to mention, that in the past women are in a much lower status than men. So, probably the reason that women mostly appear on the canvas is that they have no choice other than perform nudity? I think this might be one of the fact that we should consider to analyses why women appear so much in paintings.

Women in nudity, probably be the subject of which we could not analyze fully, since we are not the artist. The artists maybe a craver, or a philosophical sorcerer. We cannot know. However, the messages we attained from the picture, are ours own interpretation.

Sexually or Philosophically is decided upon the audience judgments,

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  onchanok on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:22 pm

Throughout time, the presence of naked women in art is common in many cultures, one of them is the European oil painting. In chapter three, Berger made a point that woman is both “the surveyor and the surveyed” (46). I totally agree with Berger that “how a woman appears to a man determine how she will be treated” (46). Personally, I think this is a biased double standard system of judgment inherited in everyday life when good-looking women are treated better than average-looking women. In contrast, a man is judged according to his power and what he can do. As a result, “men act and women appear” (47). In many European paintings, women are looking at the mirror or looking back at the spectator. For example, the painting Vanity by Memling shows a woman holding a mirror to represent the idea of woman being “a sight” (51). I think it emphasizes how a woman constantly observes herself because she worries about her appearance and how the spectator look at her.

Berger also discussed about the difference between nudity and nakedness. Originally, nudity appeared in European paintings of goddesses, such as Venus of Urbino by Titan. Later on, some artists decided to paint common nude women, such as the painting Olympia by Manet. These two paintings create a great comparison, which is the point where I start to question about the difference between nudity and nakedness. According to Kenneth Clark, “to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art" (53). I think it depends on the spectator’s point of view to judge whether a painting is naked or nude. Personally, I think the nude is when the lack of cloth is not the main focus of the painting, as Berger mentioned “a naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude" (54). However, if the spectator cannot understand the purpose of the artist and the meaning in each painting, then it is impossible to distinguish between naked and nude.

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CHAPTER 3-4

Post  Nathakit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:23 pm

Berger points out that women and men have different types of social presence. Women presence shows what can or cannot be done to her. The woman's actions reflects to her presence. At that time, men are far more superior than women therefore men owned women. A women would look at herself and resulting in a change of personality. The woman's sense of being will be replaced with the sense of appreciation by others. Whereas men being superior are measured by power they exhibit to others around them. Power of men may be presented in many forms such as money and number of women the possess. 'The surveyor of women in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object - and most importantly an object of vision: a sight'. (p47)

Women are the main subject in one category of European oil, 'ever-recurring subject'.(p47) The nudity in the paintings shows how women are seen at that time. The first nudes in traditional oil painting is Adam and Eve. There are two important elements in Adam and Eve's painting. First is the nakedness when they ate the apple. Secondly, the women is blamed and made to obey her husband unquestionably.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  Ajana on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:26 pm

In chapter 3, Berger has clearly explained about the ideal of men and women and how they view things differently which is related to the point that he makes about the ways of seeing that people see things differently. Berger also explains how the gender has become to take a role in that period in which I do agree that the way we see men and women has changed over the time. The first painting in the beginning of the chapter, “Reclining Bacchanate” (Tbutat.1825-1848.45), can be a great example to show the contrast between men and women’s point of view. In the painting, the man “pretends to be capable of what he is not” (p. 46) – this shows that the man is taking the position in which he has more power than the women does while the woman can only stay still and cannot do what she want without any permission which shows that in that time women are in controls by men. “Men act and women appear” (p.47) would be the great quote for this because it shows what position men have and showing that they are most powerful that women is depending on them.

Throughout the chapter, Berger also explains the different between being nude and naked. In my opinion, naked is meant to me more “without” than clothless and has an eroticism of its own. In art I think that without covering, you can feel naked but in the same time nude does not necessity feel naked which nude gives us more positively connotation than the word naked.


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Reading Response Chapter 3 and 4

Post  Jitrin Rojanai on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:30 pm

According from the book, “Ways of Seeing”, the things that this book has mention about what we see and what we think is different. The way we see thing can be affected by many things, the book itself also uses specific sentences that are quite true, as mentioned "the way we see things is affected by what we know or what we believe" (Berger, 1972, pp.8 ).
In chapter 3, it begins with how they view women different from men in that time period (46). There’s a line in chapter 3 which said, “Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated” (46). For me, this is quiet truth factor. People do not treat everyone equally either. However the book has suggested and what it said on how women are look down to, “The person who is the object of their activities the woman treated as a thing or an abstraction” (62). To wrap up the idea, these chapters clarify me to realize how women were viewed in the past and how this differs today. It's true that women are more equal to men today but problems such as "the glass ceiling" for women in businesses still prove that our society is male-dominated. In art, it's quite easy to see why women were chosen in so many paintings. “Men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at” (47). Like Berger explained in chapter3, this simple difference between men and women has been present in art. However, I would have to disagree with his belief that Berger's arguments in Chapter 3 are just in the past. Although women this day those hold more position than pass.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books Ltd, 1972, Print

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chapt. 3-4 response

Post  Thavisa on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:48 pm

I would agree that men are considered as a “surveyor” and women is “surveyed”. Men seemed to be interested in how women look like and how their figures are as seen by the picture on p.45. I could not agree more on how women “surveyed everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men”. Women also liked to be surveyed by men. They like when people look at them especially men because this means that they have something to be appreciated of. This is also why women like to dress up and put on lots of make up. This is all because they want to be appreciated by men. This benefits both sides because men like to see and women like to be seen.

I would disagree on “men act and women appear”. “If a women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish to be treated by others”. I personally disagree on this because throwing things is one way which I release my anger but it does not mean that I want to be treated that way. Men does act but women does not always appear.

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