Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

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Response #2

Post  Kritchanat on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:03 pm

“One might simplify this by saying: men act and women appear.” (p.47) this shows the different presence of men and women. I agree with this quote because we look at men and women differently. We tend to look at men on the outside and look at women in the inside. What men have or posses reflect their presence, such as “moral, physical, temperamental, economic, social, sexual etc.”(p.45) and women’ appearance reflect their presence.
Women’s presence becomes the subject of art. One of the forms is nude. “… to be naked is to be simply without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.” (p.53) this defines the difference in naked and nude. I understand from the quote that naked is to be without cloth, but when a naked body is performing or being the subject of an art work, it becomes nudity. Body is seen as object in nudity as said on page 54, “a naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude.”

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chap 3-4

Post  Natthakit Kangsadansenano on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:13 pm

I believe that men and woman have a different role to play as a human. So the way that we look at men and woman is different. First, if I look at a woman I will look at her gesture, orderliness, clearness and politeness. And from my experience I have seen a lot of girl looking at a guy by his gentleness, sportsmanship, generousness and kindness. So this is the different viewpoint from man and woman. Because of something that man and woman want to seek are not the same.
“Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” (47). Men is kind of gentle and our instinct control us to look at woman automatic. Woman is kind of naïve, so they always think that they being looked at. But this is in the past. Right now today is a lot more different than before. That it can be “Woman look at man. Man watch themselves being looked at”.
The different of naked and nude is the most popular topic. So from my own understand. Naked is something that we do everyday before taking a bath. And nude is something about art, like if I want look at any celebrity naked I going to search on Google of her name before nude picture.

Berger, John. Ways of seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Chapter 3-4 replied

Post  Vaiwit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:16 pm

In my opinion I do agree with Berger idea that people see men and women’s presence differently. Seeing a man people would concentrate on their background, physical strength, economic and power in social, on the other hand seeing woman people choose to concentrate on their look, beauty, language, expression, voice and their surrounding. Mostly ways how men and women look at each other are different too. “One might simplify that by saying: men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” (47) This line indicated that man are lookers who look at woman while woman look at themselves being look at.
After reading this chapter I started to understand the different between Nakeness and Nudity. Naked is to be oneself without disguise while being nude is to be seen naked by other in different form of artistic exposition. In the other word “Nudity is a form of dress”(54) is more clearifies meaning of nudity. For me I think this quote help to understand more and along with them are some reasonable to agree with Berger.

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response chapter3-4

Post  Praewpailin Srisangnam on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:23 pm

After I read chapters 3-4, I learned the sexual behavior and norms/presence of men and women. As to what Berger suggested, "A man's presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies."(p.45), I find it to be a true statement because men are seen as the ideal figure or as the 'leader'. On the other hand, women, as Berger suggested, "a woman's presence expressed her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her."(p.46), tells me that women have to look over themselves every time, or in other words, self-awareness. I also agree with Berger that "the 'ideal' spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the woman is designed to flatter him" (p.64), because men observe women before they confront her, and women often try to give the attractive impression to the public.
In the middle sections of the book explains about the difference between a naked body and a nude. To what Berger said, “A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude…Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display.”(p.54) Nudity seems to be more idealistic, comparing to nakedness, because it depends on how the spectator wants to display the subject.



Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Cop, 1972.


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response to "ways of seeing" chp3-4

Post  Thanwarat on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:24 pm

“Ways of seeing” in chapter 3 and 4 tells about how women are viewed as an object. It is mentioned in the chapters that, “The surveyor of women in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object – and importantly an object of vision: a sight” (p47). I agree with this statement since I myself am also a women and I do care about how others look at me. I believe that my reflection effects how people treat me.
Berger introduced nudity and nakedness by first mentioning how women turned themselves into object of sight. “Those who are not judged beautiful are not beautiful. Those who are, are given the prize”(p52). From this statement, nudity comes in role and the theme of judgment occurs. I myself believe that we are living in the social of judgment where we all have no real identity, but only the identity we are expected.



Berger, J. (1972). Ways of Seeing. London: Penguin Group.

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Response to 'Way of seeing' Chapter 3-4 by John Berger

Post  Felicia on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:28 pm

Women’s presence became so important that ‘men survey women before treating them’(p.46). ‘the women is consider the surveyor and the surveyed with in her’(p.46), this mean that the women has to be concerned about how she appear to men and therefore she has to survey herself and ‘demonstrate to others how her whole self would like to be treated’(p.46). The women care so much about her presence for what is normally thought of as the success of life’(p.46). The women simply turns herself into an object to the male that surveyed her. she is likely to to become the spectator owner. This is basically the art-form of European nude.

It can be seen that Others tradition nakedness never appear in this way. even though, the concept of the art is still sexual but it is likely show the active sexual love between two people. others traditions show how male and female are both acting active equally toward each other whereas european art shows ‘ men act and women appear’(p.47). It is obvious that how men treat women in the past are not equal but sexes.

In conclusion, I do agree with John Berger ‘the essential way of seeing women, the essential use to which their images are put, has not changed’(p.64), It is true that the way men view us is up to the women’s presence and this made the women concerned of herself. In my opinion, the women should not care about how the men or others views them, instead they should just be the best of herself.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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reading response Ways of Seeing chapter 3-4

Post  rudiampai on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:34 pm

From the starting of chapter 3 the writer shows the contrast between a man's presence and a woman's presence.The writer using the word 'surveyor' and 'surveyed' to describe the behavior of men and women,For this the writer says that man is a surveyor of woman and for woman she is a surveyor of herself and also be a surveyed by man.
as it said "This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves.The surveyor of woman in herself is male:the surveyed female.Thus she turns herself into an object -and most particularly an object of vision:a sight."(p.47)so from this statement we can see from the fact that woman is a surveyor of herself than somehow she sees herself as an object or a sight as it says.For example the European oil painting that categorize woman's painting as a nude painting.Other example is Adam and eve's story,Which is this related to the nakedness and the nudity,referring to the story that is firstly both were wearing nothing after eating the apple their both felt different to each other.They feel ashamed and shy the show their body and find something to hide their body,even though their body is remain the same situation that is wore nothing.So the situation before their ate the apple is a nudity and the situation after their ate is a nakedness and as the writer says "Nakedness was created in the mind of the beholder"(p.48)
And we can see the differences between nakedness and nudity in the European tradition,in book called "The Nude"by Kenneth Clark which says"to be naked is simply to be without clothes,whereas the nude is a form of art."(p.53)And this is describe everything and yet describe the nudity more clearly in (p.54) which says"The nude is condemned to never being naked.Nudity is a form of dress."And to compare the differences between the nakedness and the nudity more clearly in (p.54) also "To be naked is to be oneself.To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself.A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude.(The sight of it as an object stimulates the use of it as an object.)Nakedness reveals itself.Nudity is placed on display."so by all these statement i can see the big differences between the nudity and the nakedness.
The nudity and the nakedness is first differences from each other is from the way of the thought of the beholder.The nakedness is a person wearing nothing and have to be seen that they(the person who wearing nothing) is a owner of the body but for the nudity the person is not naked but the body that wearing nothing itself is a dress and the person who nude is not feel like they is an owner of the body so the person recognized as an object or a sight.






Berger,J. (1972).Way of Seeing.British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books Ltd.


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Response Chapter 3 and 4

Post  jidapa t. on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:35 pm

At first in the Chapter, It is telling us about the presence of male which is "dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies."(45)In my opinion, this quatation has show us that male has a high responsibilities in social and that they keep one's word. The author also compared the presence of male with female which female's presence is"expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her."(46) In my feeling I think thet the author wanted to tell us that woman is egoistic. They usually self-willed and not listen to the others.

The difference between naked and nude is included in this chapter too. Berger says that "She is naked as the spectator sees her."(50)and "Thus she joins the spectators of herself."(50)This tells us that nakedness comes from other people point of view and that must show up from their own pleasure. I support this idea, in the present world women has spend a lot of time doing nonsensical things. They all must do their best to become beautiful and to be attractive to men."To be nude is too be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself."(54) One big difference of nude from naked is that "nude is a form of art"(53) but naked is not. Nudity is when you adding accessory to the naked picture. It's like a disguise figure of naked picture.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972.

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Response #2 to Chapter 3-4

Post  Aanchal Mirchandani on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:38 pm

After reading chapter 3 and 4, the concept of women and their connection to art and the reason behind them being an integral subject in paintings throughout the years has become more clear. Especially, the concept of showing nude and/or naked women within the paintings.

Seeing beyond the physical aspects of a women, 'her presence is manifest in her gestures, voice, opinions, expressions, clothes, chosen surroundings, taste"(Berger, 46) This sentence from the text reminded me of the how society plays an important role in today's world.Putting this into a personal context, growing up in the Indian society has shown me that being a women brings great responsibility and the society looks at everything and judges you. Whether its your clothes, opinions or what you do.

The interesting thing stated within the book was the difference in the definition between being naked and being nude. Before reading this novel, frankly the difference to me was very minimal if not nonexistent. Because I thought that naked and nude meant the same thing. "Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display." (Berger, 54) Being naked allows the woman to reveal not just her body but her emotions and gestures as well where as nudity is something that is shown and put up to see. For example, the painting 'Venus of Urbino' by Titian is a painting depicting goddess Venus. Her small gestures, hand movements and her tilt allow the audience to understand her personality.Its a huge difference because nakedness is a very private where as nudity is more out in the open and shown to the world.

Nowadays, the depiction of women are not only expressed through paintings but are depict through different medias such as "advertising, journalism, television." (Berger, 63) The way people see women today as drastically changed as the perception of women has changed and the media has supported this change.

Reference:
Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.
[b]

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Chapter 3-4 Response

Post  Napone on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:40 pm

From the reading (chapter 3-4) one of the big topics are about sexuality and nude art. “Nakedness was created in the mind of the beholder.”(p.48) from my view I think nakedness appear just because we think it is naked, but if we look over the sense of nakedness allow ourselves to touch the beauty of nude art and it should change your perspective about the sexuality.
“A men presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies.”(p.45), “The social presence of woman has developed as a result of their ingenuity in living under such tutelage within such a limited space.”(p.46). you can conclude from the quote that men and women are not used to express the same feeling or even the meaning. In another point of view, we shouldn’t use sexuality as judgment to judge the beauty of the art work, as I mention before if we just allow ours mind to see in different way, we will see the world in a wider and better view.
From the conclusion, the way without seeing the art price depended on other factors (sexuality and nakedness, etc.) you will found that there will always be others meaning behind it.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Cop, 1972.


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Chapter 3&4 response

Post  Channop on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:40 pm

In agreement with Burger “men survey women before treating them” (p.46) I would go along with his idea because first impression that women give men can effect every idea of men.
This can inspire men how to treat the one they got attached and knowing each other as well.
Just like the book said ''Is not the expression remarkably similar in each case ? It is the expression of a woman responding with calculated charm to the man whom She images looking at her - although she doesn't know him. She is offering up her femininity as the surveyed'' (p.55)
As you can see, most of the naked painting are women, It probably assumes that women have interesting shape more than men such as boobs, waist and etc.
From my experience the different of naked and nude is one of the most subject in the world.
Naked is about something normal and habit. Everyone was born to be naked when they were babies but nude feels more like creativity of human. I have one t-shirt which there is a nude celebrity on it from the designer Marc by Marc Jacob. They have made this sort of stuffs to make the aid for those charities. I believe that nude can be fascinated human till present day.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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response chapter3-4

Post  kotchamon on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:43 pm

According to the passage, “A nude is not the starting point of a painting, but a way of seeing which the painting achieves” shows us the tradition of painting that became more secular which origin by the first nude European oil painting ‘Adam and Eve’ , by Mabuse. Berger also claimed about the difference of the social presence between man and woman. Equality between man and woman was already lost in that period. “A Man’s presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies” while a Woman’s presence is manifest in her gestures, voices, opinions, expressions, clothes and chosen surrounding. This passage could be a good example for this article, “If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others. If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger.” ( p.47) “You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her” said Berger, I think that is true. Because the more interested in the figure the more beautiful come over to that painting. There are many painted of nakedness in that period but my favorite one is the painting by Rubens, it’s a painting of his second wife. If you imagine backward to the motion before she put the fur to her shoulders, you can see that it is an entirely naked painting. Like what Berger said the painting contains time and experience.

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Response #2 to chapter 3-4

Post  Natthakit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:44 pm

"The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (p45). As it is shown on this chapter that the role of men and woman in society is very different in terms of social rankings, power and the ‘presence.’ In contrary to men, women’s presence is reflected by many factors such as, “her gestures, voice, opinions, expressions, clothes, chosen surroundings, taste.” (p.46) Because of that, it may be the reasons why mirrors in art symbolises vanity or self-admiration in women, however, it is argued that “the real function of the mirror was otherwise... to make the women connive in treating herself as, first and foremost, a sight (p.51). This implies segregation of men and women in society during that time and the following quote also supports this idea, “nakedness is not, however, an expression of her own feelings; it is a sign of her submission to the owner’s feelings or demands. (The owner of both woman and painting.) (p.52)”

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Response #2

Post  Ayuthai on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:46 pm

After I finished chapter 3 and 4, I'm interested in the different between
men and women's presence. According to the text "A man's presence suggests
what he is capable of doing to you or for you" (p.46) and "a woman's presences
expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done
to her". I think it is unfair because, people judge men by their
capability for example; a big man represents a strong man while a small man
represent a fast runner. while women were judge by their appearance.
"Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated" (P.46). This also shows different roles between men and women, we can see that men are the observer and women are the one to be observed.
It shows that men treated women differently by observed them first then decided about
how to treat them.


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Response Chapter 3-4

Post  Winchana Prucksananont on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:47 pm

As I read chapter 3 and 4, I agree with Berger’s point about the difference in social presence of men and women. As Berger said the promised power of a man will be expressed in his “moral, physical, temperamental, economic, social, and sexual” (p.45) and a woman’s presence will be shown in her “gestures, voice, opinions, expressions, clothes, and chosen surroundings” (p.46). Not only the differences in the ways of expression, men and women have different attitudes and also have different ways of seeing things too. According to Vasinth’s opinion, I also agree with him about Berger’s statement that "Women are depicted in a quite different way from men - not because the feminine is different from the masculine - but because the 'ideal' spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of the woman is designed to flatter him" (p.64) since it is very general that men are the surveyor who seek to start the relationship with the women.
The chapter also mentioned about the terms of nude and naked. Women’s presence becomes the subject of art. One of the forms is nude. According to Kenneth Clark, “… to be naked is to be simply without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.” (p.53).In my opinion, nude is a word that expressed more positive meaning than naked. It is hard to define whether a painting is nude or naked since it depends on person’s point of view.

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response ch.3-4

Post  Wish Vitayathanagorn on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:49 pm

In the beginning the text talks about the different views of men and women. “A men’s presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodied” (p.45). “…, a women’s presence expresses her own attitude to herself” (p.46). The two quotes show the different between men and women presence which I agree with the text. Men’s presence was on the outside with the wealth and properties one own, but women’s presence come with the attitude she show, or what is on the inside. Men and women presence is the opposite of each other. Therefore the action of women is limited because women want to be seen as ideal women, and it reflects through their action.
Because women’s presence reflects from there looks, it is portrait as picture. Women become the subject of nude because “Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” (p.47). Women turn their body into object, especially paintings. The form of art that present the women body is nudity.

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response chapter 3-4

Post  Sutinee Prongmake on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:56 pm

According to john berger statements “A men presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies.”(p.45) and “ A woman’s presence expresses her own attitude to herself , and defines what can and connot be done to her.(p.46), they show the different views of sex between man and woman. I agree with praj as he said that “It does imply that men express the feeling of power and dependent, Women are express under the men power. In some point I think this leading to the past that men have the power over all, but men always have women that like a supporter. “. Moreover , A woman’s presence is manifest in her gestures , voice , opinions , expressions to bring about good appearance whilst a man does the same but in the different way , for an example , by moral , physical , temperamental , economic , social and the things that make he looks good from exterior.

I also agree with vasinth’s opinion that “I feel that it reflects psychologically to the modern today and to every heterosexual because generally men are the 'surveyor' and are drawn to seek relationships with the opposite sex, while women are the 'surveyed', the ones being watched or the target” and john berger’s statement which said “ men act and women appear ”(p.47) manifest the difference and inequality in those period of time

The difference between nakedness and nudity as berger’s said “to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art.” (p.53).In my opinion, I prefer nudity more than naked , I think nude art is the way to show the nature of human and the real feeling of the artists.

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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  Palita B. on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:57 pm

From the reading, Berger points out about the nudity and nakedness of women. “To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude” (54)
Women in both nudity and nakedness have no clothes on but it depends on how people see them, they were not naked in their own rights but naked as men saw them. Men usually see those women in the sexual way for satisfying their desire but nudity is one kind of art. Then I think nudity and nakedness are different, depends on people's opinions.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

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Chapter 3-4 Response

Post  Soravit Boonchit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:58 pm

I do agree with John Berger that he said “The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (page. 45) I am agree with this because men and women not only have a different kind of feeling since they were born but also they were bring up naturally too. So, they totally have a various ways to determine things. I also agree with “Men survey women before treating them”(page.46) that if the woman is unpretty, the first impression of men will not going so well, according to reason, if the woman is beautiful, the men will treat them logically. This is showing that men are more powerful than a women. It's a ordinarily of human being. In consequence “Men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at.” (page. 47) is also one of my agreement too.


According to the book, I am agree with the author about the definition of nudity. “To be naked is to be without disguise” and “The nude is condemned to never being naked. Nudity is a form of dress” (p.54). For me, nudity has the meaning of showing the state of being naked as art and it shows the beauty of body in each sex without any clothes or accessory. But, it also has a negative thinking of the image that people always judge it what the painting shows, they did not judge what the painting try to connect with people and certainly, each painting has their own meaning according to the author said “The way the painter has painted her includes her will and her intentions in the very structure of the image, in the very expression of her body and her face” (page. 58) Lastly, people shouldnt judge a painting only by looking that it is art, but it is a knowledge too.


Berger, J. (1972). Ways of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Cop.

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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  Alliya on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:59 pm

Chapter 3 and 4 of the book 'Ways of Seeing' by Berger deals much with the subject of nudity of women in art. I admittedly am in conflict with myself on my opinions of the content in this chapter.

The ways woman are perceived and men are perceived are different. As seen in paintings and stated in the book, a man's presence is more aggressive and dominant whilst women are passive and submissive. "Men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at" (Berger 47). The pictures painted shows the woman as an object to satisfy the pleasure of the people who view said painting. The feeling of a human is lessened and the "woman have been seen and judged as sights" (Berger 47).

"If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others" (Berger 47). This quote makes little sense to me. As people, we almost never wish for a bad thing to be done to us therefore the saying that a woman who vents her anger is such way wants to be vented upon the same is illogical for me. "If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger” (Berger 47). Here is the subtle input that it is acceptable to treat woman as a glass, in other words, an object. I agree with Banyaporn that this is an act of discrimination. Values people hold back then were different of the present.

Women are not objects. Its understandable since during the older ages, women were seen as objects but times have changed. I understand the reason and logic to why they were treated as such but it does not alter my general distaste to it.

I disagree to Bunyapha's saying that "nowadays people changed also women and men became identical". Though things have changed dramatically over the course of time, men and women are still not viewed in the same way. Even now, if we do the challenge to "transform a woman into a man" as stated in page 64, we still recognize the attributes of the picture as being related to a female.

As next stated in the book, naked and nude is different. "To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen by others and yet not recognized for oneself" (Berger 54). I agree to this but in my mind it is slightly different. To be naked holds a slightly negative feeling for me. It feels completely unprotected; everything that you are, your faults and all, available to for all to see and judge. But yet it also holds a positive feeling of sincereness where there is nothing to hide. "To be naked is to be without disguise" (Berger 54). In a sense, nakedness does offer a feeling of submission but contradicting to what the book says on page 52, it is an expression of her feelings; her feeling of being ready to submit. I agree that "nude is a form of art" (Berger 53). Nudity is controlled, unlike nakedness.

Berger , John . Ways of Seeing . London : British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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reading response ; chapter3-4

Post  Pawika on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:01 am

From chapter 3 and 4, Berger gives an idea about the social presence between men and woman.“Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to man can determine how she will be treated.”(p.46) I totally agree in this part. As we can see nowadays in our society, women who appear to be more beautiful are certainly more attractive to most of people, of course men. For example, if a man meets two women, one is more beautiful than the others, he will of course choose to treat the more beautiful one better than less beautiful one. Therefore, an appearance is one of the most important factors for most men to determine how to treat women.

Moreover, the first impression always count and how the woman will be treated will be heavily influenced by her first appearance to the man. First appearance leads to the first perceptions and impressions the man has of the woman. Should he feel the woman is 'rare' then he will be more attracted to the woman and finds it more challenging to try and please this woman through satisfying her tastes and choices.

This rule basically applies to most people, should you find someone attractive and of 'high value' to you then you will distribute your resources and time accordingly, with more going towards those who you feel most important.


Berger , John . Ways of Seeing . London : British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Respond chapter 3-4

Post  Nattan on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:05 am

I constantly agree with berger’s claims in chapter 3 “The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of man “ (p.45) . If you ask me , In the past women and men are actually different . Women always care about our appearance and how their look and how the others viewing them . After I finished to read the book , I really understood the difference between Nudity and Nakedness in the way of artistic . The book exemplify the legend painting of Adam and Eva – eating apple in Eden garden – makes it more obviously that how the human sight changed in sexual way . Each other differently by their inner feeling of “ the mind of the beholder” .(pg.48) .For example “ A man’s presence suggests what he is capable of doing to you or for you “(pg.46) e.g. a strong , muscular man are capable of using more appearance displays what he can do .In contrast “a woman ‘s presences expresses her own attitude on herself , and defines what can and cannot be done to her “( pg.46) . People view a man from “ moral ,physical, temperamental , sexual , economic “( pg. 45) and woman from their “ gesture ,opinions , voice , clothes , expressions …” (pg.46) It have many reason that why women and men are alike and I can’t agree more .


Now I utterly understood more and more about the differences between these two words : nude and naked .” Kenneth Clark maintains that to be naked is simply to be without clothes , whereas the nude is form of art .(pg.53) For me , The subject might just be a naked women , but the way those women was ainted could make them become nude .


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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  Korapin on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:08 am

According to the reading of chapter 3-4, Berger made a point of social presence of man and woman; how social view both sex differently. A man shows his presence with a promise of power; suggests of what he is capable of doing to you or for you (p.46). While woman express her social presence with her attitude and how she acts. In the past, men own women. They were treated as an object for men’s satisfaction. And because of this women are taught to survey themselves to aware of her actions at every single moment, which comes to consider that women are “the surveyor and the surveyed”. Men survey women before treating them and it is very important that women have to aware of how they appear in people’s sight, especially men’s (p.46). This shows how both sex are unequally treated in the society. Even though men and women are now equal, there is still a thought of women being subservient to men embedded in today’s societies.

Berger also explains how “nudity” and “ nakedness” are different. Nakedness is when one’s body is without cloth, when nudity is a form of an art. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude (p.54). People’s point of view divides the idea of naked and nude into different meaning.

Reference: Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Cop, 1972.

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Re: Global Art History - INDA - Response #2

Post  Chakkraphob on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:12 am

"Men survey woman before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated" (p.46). This sentence interests me because it is true in a way, but the striking truth is that this theory doesn't only apply to men but also women. Women also survey men before they decide how to respond to them (unless the woman treated the man first). It might be typical and an appropriate thing for a women to behave like a "lady" back in the days, but the society has changed considerably. Nowadays, this theory also works the other way round. This also relates a lot to "first impression" as we human tends to judge people from their appearance before we actually get to know them in depth, much like the saying "don't judge the book by its cover".

Chapter three focuses on the difference between "nude" and "naked" in great details. According to Berger, "To be naked is to be oneself" but "to be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself". Furthermore, "a naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude". (p.54). Does this means that to be "naked" is to be alone by yourself without clothes? And does this means that in order to be "nude", one has to be seen without clothes on by others? There is a lot of vaqueness in Berger's explanation. After reviewing this for numerous times, I do not thoroughly understand the difference between the two states. How can one be seen naked by others but not recognize that he or her himself is naked? If Berger is trying to imply that nude is a form of art, then how is it different from being naked, except for the fact that, according to Berger himself, naked is not observed but nudity is observed by others. From my understanding as of now, thought it is subject to change as I understand better, there is slight difference between being nude and being naked. I am not trying to prove Berger wrong or discrediting him, but it's just that many questions were raised in my mind after reading this chapter and so far they are still unanswered.

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Chapter 3 & 4 [Patorn Sangruchi]

Post  Patorn on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:17 am

Burger’s text on female nudity in classical art has shed new light on my understanding of the reasoning behind Empress Eugenie’s attempt to smack, with her umbrella, Manet’s “Olympia” painting. One embedded in classical painting tradition, female nudity is a popular theme which, according to Burger, “is designed to flatter [men]” (p. 64). Why then, would a painting done in 1863 by Manet, which shows a girl lying naked in front of a black slave, cause a great deal of controversy in the day of its first exhibition? Using new information from Burger’s writings, I have found brutal differences between the widely-accepted classical nude paintings and Manet’s “Olympia”.

Firstly, it is important to recognize that Olympia is actually considered ‘naked’ and not ‘nude’. The main reason being the fact that Olympia, in herself, is full of signs and ornaments which indicate her status as being courtesan. This is radically different from the classical nude in which the woman’s body is striped off any objects which can be used to identify her as being ‘her’- and thus, reduced into an art object whose sole purpose is to be looked at. Olympia status of nakedness isolates the viewer, so that the viewer is reduced into only an outsider instead being of a ‘possessor’. Secondly, the look of Olympia towards the viewer is depicted as rather harsh and passionless, unlike classical paintings such as “Grande Odalisque” (Jean Dominique, 1814) which shows the woman as looking submissively and provocatively to the male-presumed audience. This causes a stir, as Manet elevates the status of the Olympia into a human with individuality and personality, away from the convention that woman is an object which is always and only acted upon by men. To introduce my third and last point, I would need to make clear Burger’s analysis of the woman mind. According to him, the surveyor and the surveyed are the “two constituent yet always distinct elements of [a woman’s identity]” (p. 46). The surveyed is her part that is presented to the men, while the surveyor is the part that controls how the ‘surveyed’ part is seen by the men. The ‘surveyed’ image of woman at that time, before ‘Olympia’ was unveiled to the public, is one of high status as a mother and which demands respect from the men. Sex is only obtainable if she sees fit. In this way, woman at that time thrives under the tutelage of a world controlled by men. The showing of the ‘Olympia’ threatens this ‘surveyed’ part of the woman at that time by pulling the Venus-like image down to a prostitute, in which case, sex is easily obtainable with money and thus, woman is turned into an object of sexual pleasure. In my opinion, this is one of the major reason behind all the public fury that this painting sparked.

In many ways, Manet’s deviation from the traditional depiction of the female figure pulls us back to reality, saying that the world do not revolve around as. Instead, we are simply looking at the world going about its normal revolutions from outside, in a position of an outsider.

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