Global Art History - CommDe - Response #2

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Athikom Horkriengkrai

Post  Athikom Horkriengkrai on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 pm

In my opinion, I agree with the fact that women and men are difference like what the author had mention. Generally, men are physically stronger than women also, social presence is difference. From the past it seem like men has more important role then women, they go to war and protect women on the other side female is symbol of beauty. Even nowadays women have equal rights to men but it still have someting that men can do but women can't.

Another topic is about nudity in art which is mostly are nudity of women. I totally agree with this sentence "In the art-form of the European nude the painters and spectator-owners were usually men and the persons treated as objects, usually women." ( page 63 ) like what I have said before that in the past, men have more important role then women even in art, famous artist from the past are mostly men. Also, women are symbol of beauty and absolutely every men like women so they just painted what they like, this can be another reason why it had only women nudity in that period.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

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Kunyapat Chareonying

Post  Kunyapat Ch. on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:23 pm

It's sad but i can't deny that men and women are not equal and we're different. Not only these days but even in the past. It's because we're treated differently from society and even in family. For instance in Chinese family, sons are always being treated more nicely than the daughters. They have more freedom and are always pleased by their parents. But in another hand, daughters doesn't get attentions much and are even counted as disgrace in the past.
Women are taught to always survey themselves like Berger's saying "Men act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at."(p.47). Unfortunately but true. Making men a surveyor and women as an object. This maybe the reason that women are often chose to be in the painting as an object and men as a spectators.
I also agree with Nicha that nakedness and nudity aren't the same. Even though there's no clothes on them, but nakedness has nothing to do with art as Berger said that "A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude. Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display.”(p. 54). Although it's up to the spectator's point of view, to distinguish what is nudity and what is nakedness.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

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Khachonyot Yaempradit

Post  KHACHONYOT on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:46 pm

I do agree with all of the responses that the women and men have been treated unfair like what the author had mention. Especially the women, their attitudes might not be the same as the men do which it said about the man in the passage, “A man’s presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies” (p.45) and “A man’s presence suggests what he is capable of doing to you or for you” (p.45-46).

I would say that there is a difference between being naked and nude. According to the text, “Nakedness reveals itself” while “Nudity is placed on display” (p.54). From how I see it, nakedness is simply being exposed and “without disguise” (p.54). Because, nudity exposes areas of the body which is meant to
be exposed and deliberately consists of nakedness in the way that they want the spectator to see it. I do agree with Titirat Skultantimayta that nudity is a form of art but its has the negative image because people judge the art by not trying to find what the painting is trying to communicate with the audience but they judge it in a sexual way.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

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Re: Global Art History - CommDe - Response #2

Post  Nattakarn on Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:47 pm

According to what Berger said, “The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (p.45). In my opinion, It might be true that men and women aren’t equal in term of power and strength. But the social presence of feminine nowadays, I think feminism has improved and become more equal to men than it used to be in the past. That is why when Berger states that “In the art-form of the European nude the painters and spectator-owners were usually men and the persons treated as objects, usually women.” (Page 57) I think it very out of dates. As a woman, I think it is quite unfair to look at women as an object. Men or women are all human being. For me, it is unacceptable to think of women this way. However, I agree with Chanapak about the fact that men still have the same attitude toward women as Berger said “the ideal spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of women is designed to flatter him” (Page 58).

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

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Chatchanok Methajitiphan

Post  chatchanokm on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:41 pm

As Athikom Horkriengkra mentioned about how the author shows the differences in a role of men and women physically, i agree. However the author had also mentioned about the mentality of view of perspective through the differences of men and women. In this case i mean that the author had also looked at the differences behavior of men and women and what does the behavior represent there thought. For example pg.47 "if women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish to be treated by others. if a man does the same, his action only read as an expression of anger" this qoute represent of how the author differentiate the differences in men and women way of treating there emotion.
I also agree with many others that mentioned about the inequality of how people viewing the nudity of painting, as the author has said pg.51 "you painted a naked women because you enjoy looking at her" this quote is pretty much represent how the viewer view the painting differently, the painting contain its meaning and value, but for some group of people were just enjoy looking at a naked women. However, the author only mentioned about what people thinks of naked women, but what if naked men, will the viewer be thinking the same? As Nattakarn have said "men or women we all human being" we should all be treated the same way. we are all social animal.

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Response to ways f seeing chap 3 & 4

Post  Amrita on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:43 pm

I agree with the saying “men act and women appear” Even now women will constantly survey themselves in order to control how the men survey them and therefore how they will treat them. So it similar to say that women appears to men in order to be surveyed in the way they want to ,but men have to act like they have power in order to gain the attention and to be looked at with respect.

I think this type of thinking in European culture has probably sprung from their teaching and religion. Like the story of Adam and Eve “ Unto the women God said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over you.” It clearly states how the woman (Eve) is now a possession of her husband to atone for her sins. This is connected to how is most of the European Nude painting the woman is always looking at the spectator and posing, because as a who she is also aware of the spectator. The Women in those portraits are not doing it for their own sexuality but for the men’s (who are the spectators) sexuality. So the woman becomes a possession or object to the person who owns the painting.

Berger, John. Way of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Pinthita

Post  LiliTcml on Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:47 pm

from the context I read,they were talking about the appearances of women which are different from men's. The men presence is the expression toward others. But for women,their presence express their own attitudes (p.40) Women care about their appearances, especially before men because it will effect the treating of others toward them. Said in the book that ''men act and women appear'' (p.40) show how different in thoughts of men and women. Women is a gender that think a lot about how people act toward them.About the painting of women,nude,they shows the women's point of view. "she is not naked as she is, she is naked as the spectator sees her." (p.44) shows that women in the picture was afraid of being seen naked. but there's different meaning between naked and nudity. As they said that "To be naked is simply to be without clothes,whereas the nude is a form of art" (p.47) , I think it's up to people's opinions toward the picture. If we want to see her naked,she's naked.If we want to see a nudity,she's being nude.

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Pin Phianpattanawit commde30

Post  Pin Phianpattanawit on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:45 pm

The painting or picture of the nude or naked woman when the object is looking out to the spectator can definitely build a strong sexual desire to men. The curve, line and color when combined to make a painting of a beautiful women is a great creation in the eye of men.


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Pornchanok

Post  Pornchanok on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:02 am

I do agree that the reason men and women are different is because they are brought up differently. For my opinion, girls get a little bit more attention from their parents, and this might actually be another factor that makes them think and act different from boys.
However, I do not agree with some points Berger made, for example, he did mention that woman somehow “has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men, is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life. Her own sense of being in herself is supplanted by a sense of being appreciated as herself by another”. (p.46) I don’t believe that all women survey everything they are and everything they do only because how they appear to others. I believe most women who live ordinary lives don’t usually pay their attentions to that kind of things that much. For my opinion, they just don’t wanna look different. That’s all.

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Re: Global Art History - CommDe - Response #2

Post  Napassawan on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:20 am

By saying "The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man" (45), Berger sure has built a process of thinking and questioning in the eyes of the readers. Berger states, "A man's presence suggests what he is capable of doing to you or for you... By contrast, a woman's presence expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her" (45-46). This alone suggests how he, and most likely some others, sees men and women. I agree with only the latter half of this statement about the women and have developed a thought of how to put that idea into what we're studying here, art and image-making. To be "taught and persuaded to survey herself continually" (46), in most of the artworks that depict the nature of the women, twenty of them I've found in this chapter alone, portray women in a variety of postures, emotions, et cetera, regarding the importance of her beauty, even though she's naked. I see the same message in those pictures of men.

Moving on to the next point, to talk about the difference in nakedness and nudity. "Nakedness was created in the mind of the beholder" (48) was probably the most striking sentence on the topic that Berger has brought me to think of following questions. Regarding his reference to Kenneth Clark's The Nude, "To be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art" (53), his statement above and this one are still contradicting. While Clark's statement tends to sound more like nakedness is the truth and nudity is the side imagination, Berger's response to this topic is the other way around. His statement "She is not naked as she is. She is naked as the spectator sees her" (50) adds the point to that. This time I agree with Clark. If the subject of a picture has nothing on, it is no doubt that he or she is naked, but to see it as a pornographic or the beauty of human, it is totally up to how the viewer would put it to. At times, naked women portrayed in pictures get insulted at, for the beholders put her nakedness in a bad way. It is a bit sad how it has been this way for a long time how most of the nude paintings are of women, not men. If all nude portraits were to be divided equally between men and women, what way(s) of seeing would we have nowadays?


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Aurapa Osthananda

Post  Aurapa on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:07 am

The third chapter of the book discusses the difference of men and women as well as the subject of nudity (in art also).

I agree with most of the part where Berger talks about the difference of men and women. Of course, men and women are physically and mentally different. It is true that woman “turns themselves in to an object” (p.41). They constantly watch themselves and “ survey everything she is and everything she does because she appears to men” (p.40), but in my opinion men does that too. Another interesting point is where Berger stated, “ the social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (p.39). In the past, women are raised and treated as just a living object to provide convenience to men, for example, taking care of the house, have babies, take care of the babies, and so on. They don’t have any (or almost no) rights to do other things than that. It is hard to imagine now that women were once treated unequally. Time passes by things changes, woman has more rights now and I am glad these changes happen. To conclude, I think men and women are equal but different.

As for the nudity, I agree with the statement “ naked is simply to be without cloths, whereas the nude is a form of art” (Berger, p.47). Many people may wonder why artists paint nude pictures. For me, nudity has a meaning or a story behind it unlike nakedness. Nude women in art are different to those in porno magazines. The nude women expressions such as her pose, looks, or even direction of seeing is to respond to the man whom she imagines looking at her
(Usually the owner of the picture and in some case the artist) which in my opinion is the act of affection (and sometimes, submission), unlike woman in porno magazines which the only purpose is to satisfy men in general.

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Re: Global Art History - CommDe - Response #2

Post  Virada on Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:14 am

In these two chapters of John Berger's "Ways of Seeing", I do agree with him in terms of his general theories.
As for the first part where Berger speaks of and deals with how men and women are different, I fall in with the section where he speaks of how women’s presence are different to men. I really do think that most women are always aware of how they look and appear to the public eyes, both consciously and unconsciously. This may be because the fact that women are raised and taught to survey herself frequently, in the agreement to Aurabha’s words that said that women’s identities are generally to serves men’s ability. Presence for women is a vital thing, as Berger had said in page 46, “A women’s presence expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her.”

For the second part where Berger speaks of the terms naked and nude, most people might think that they are the same, but actually they are, of which, different. After reading this part, I have came to an understanding that the term “naked” serves to similarly the theme of pornography whereas the term “nude” is more of a style for European-art in which, in my opinion, women are portrayed in a more sophisticate and tender way. It does not suggest anything much of sexual, but just a feeling of passion and attraction.

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Panakorn CommDe26

Post  panakorn on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:56 pm

I agree with all on the above, especially Dithiphan. According to the passage,“The social presence of women is different in kind of that of a man. A man’s presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies.” (p.45). Woman and men were treated differently,so everyone can have a different types of social presence. Even though in nowadays people believe that everybody are equal but in the deepest mind women still are not equal to men in many terms, like a power or strength. As a woman view, we always care about our appearance,we care of others that think about us. From the above we can see that people were treated differently.

The chapter also tell the difference between nakedness and nudity. which says "The nude is condemned to never being naked.Nudity is a form of dress."And to compare the differences between the nakedness and the nudity more clearly in (p.54) also "To be naked is to be oneself.To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself.A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude.(The sight of it as an object stimulates the use of it as an object.)

Berger, John. Way of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

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Panatchakorn Viratmalee commde 27 (2nd reply) :-)

Post  Panatchakornv. on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:49 pm

In this chapter,the author explain about the portrayal of woman in European art .I do agree with most of the replies but I have to argue with Pornchanok's reply about this quote from the book. " She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men, is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life. Her own sense of being in herself is supplanted by a sense of being appreciated as herself by another”. (p.46) Pornchanok declared that "I don’t believe that all women survey everything they are and everything they do only because how they appear to others. I believe most women who live ordinary lives don’t usually pay their attentions to that kind of things that much. For my opinion, they just don’t wanna look different. That’s all." Which I do not agree. I think that what Berger said is true. Women always survey everything they are even though they did not notice. That is just a part of being woman. If a woman follow some manly behavior, she would surely be called as a bad woman.

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