Global Art History - CommDe - Response #2

Please remember to not everyone focus on the same information - for example the reclining female figure is one thing, and another is the passive female versus the active male, as a framework in art, and image-making.

It would be nice to see that part of the Berger at least touched on, with references to the text, and slides we've looked at in class. I welcome any dialogue based-on and analytical of information from the chapters though. Thank you.

In my opinion, I think it is true about the social presence of men and women. According to the passage, “The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (45). I totally agree with this because the men and women were treated differently when they were young. Then their attitudes could not be the same. As it said about the man in the passage, “A man’s presence is dependent upon the promise of power which he embodies” (45) and “A man’s presence suggests what he is capable of doing to you or for you” (45-46). Then looking what Berger tells about the woman in the passage, “A woman’s presence expresses her own attitude to herself, and defines what can and cannot be done to her” (46). It shows that all men and women have the different attitudes and thinking to express their presences. I think it is the truth because men always look at the women first , including beauties and attitudes, and then men will think how they can treat these women. If the men see the beautiful women, they will be gentle and polite to the women. In the opposite way If the men see the ugly women , they can be rude and impolite to these ladies.

Berger points out about the nudity and nakedness of women in the European oil painting. He states, “To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude” (54). It means that women have been judged by the spectator’s sight. Otherwise, all the paintings have their own meaning in themselves. According to the passage, “The way the painter has painted her includes her will and her intentions in the very structure of the image, in the very expression of her body and her face” (58). It tells us that all nude paintings have their own meaning but the spectators look at them and think in other ways such as sexuality. I think it is true because nowadays this fact still exists that all men look at the nude pictures and use the women as objects to release their desires.


Berger, John. Way of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

I really do agree with what Dhitiphan said earlier that, “the men and women were treated differently when they were young” and adding to that in my opinion I think men and women are still get treated differently when they are grown up. For example in the text it stated that, “If a women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion…If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger…Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake” (p.41). This sounds a bit unfair to me. Why only a man can make a good joke for its own sake? Why can’t a woman do it too?

As the text carries on, it talks about the nakedness and nudity of women in European painting. The book states that, “The Nude Kenneth Clark maintains that to be naked is simply to be without clothes, whereas the nude is a form of art” (p.47). I totally agree with this one because when I’m thinking about the word ‘naked’, what’s coming to my mind is no clothes. And the word ‘nude’ is nude picture. I believe picture or photo is one form of arts. Even though photographic is different from painting, it can express feeling that photography wants to portray just like painting expresses feeling, emotion, and message from painter.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: Penguin, 2008. Print.

When we were raised what sex we are will determine how our family will treat us. Males will be given more freedom to choose while females will have restrictions here and there. Our social hierarchy would also have us thinking that the ideal male would be strong in both the physical and mental, while the female to be the thing of beauty. The female body is different to the male as it is sort after in a different way. “One might simplify this by saying: men act and women appear” (p.47). In every society men are always the one who goes to war and do the action that drives the population. On the other hand, women have always been taught to value beauty as a way of purpose. The Christen bible, book of Genesis, story of Adam and Eve did say that, due to the belief, that it was the women’s fault for eating form the tree of knowledge and thus getting both of the kicked out of the Garden of Eden. Of course, this is no way to think as nowadays women are valued as an equal working force. But the idea was thought up due to the women’s role in the society. As a comment of Nattakul’s previous comment about this subject about, “If a women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion…If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger…Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake” (p.41). I don’t think that the man making a joke was the point but it was the fact that how males and females in our society was raised differently on how to deal without emotions. Men would deal with anger or frustration by expressing it in a form of force or destruction while if a woman throws her glass on the floor it could be because of anger but the result of expressing anger would be different from woman to woman.

The book stated that, “The nude in European oil painting is usually presented as an admirable expression of the European humanist spirit,” (p.62), meaning being ‘nude’ is a way to show the states position of that individual. As in the christen bible, man was made in the image of God, thus making a nude picture a representative of the embodiment of the omnipotent being.

Due to Berger’s claims on women’s presence that is “different in kind from that of a man” (p.45), I don’t totally agree with his view.

It’s true that women aren’t equal to man in terms of strength, status, power or right in many of history or stories, as in “Adam and Eve” on p.47, men are always superior than women (barely see women are). Even in nowadays, in the age of globalization, the feminism has much improved but still not women is equivalent to men in terms of attitudes. But I, as a woman, have a feeling that as we (us all, both male and female) are human, having mind and thoughts, can determine things thoroughly. Although it’s just an ideal situation, but gender isn’t such a difference if we look at people by their minds and personalities. With this attitude, I don’t think women’s presence is different than men’s.

And for the nakedness and nudity terms, I agreed with Nattakul. Nakedness involves sexuality but nudity isn’t always be. They are separated by the thin line that drew by the artist. To make a nudity in art not to become a nakedness in a tough thing for the artist but that’s what artist have to archive. So that to photograph the nudity is more difficult that to paint one (as referred in p.60). Painting artist can edit on his figure whilst photograph artist has much more limit to control his figure for not to make it too much so it will become a obscene image.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

I do agree with John Berger on the homosexual. He said "we did not, of course, consciously expect this to be otherwise : unconscious homosexual desire (or unconscious heterosexual desires if the couple concerned are homosexual" pg. 53 but i found this quite an insult. It's shown in the news that researchers have found a fossil of a cave man that was buried like the women instead of men. I think that homosexual are present even in the prehistoric period. Not to mention that we were an animal before, and sometimes, male animals hump each other! If you are confused, do not be. I am quite sure that you would not be able to state a specific reason why you have a lust for someone from your opposite sex, but if you are, the reason for homosexual to have desires on each other is the same as yours. It's just a complicated.

In the present, the image of women has not changed. On the contrast, the image of men has changed. Now, not only women "survey, like men, their own femininity" but men also survey their own masculinity.

According to Berger "From earliest childhood, women has been taught and persuade to survey herself continually" (pg.40) I agree with this statement because firstly, i'm a woman and secondly, most women would judge themselves by the look of men. Just like what Berger stated that "How women appears to men is normally thought of as the success of her life" (pg. 40).

From what i understand, most of the images shown that, "the subject ( a woman), is aware of being seen by spectator" (pg.43) if a woman isn't directly look back at you, they would look at the opposite direction to a man ( if there is one). For example, an image of a Venus, cupid time and love by Bronzino (pg.48), shows that a Venus isn't looking back at the spectator however, she looks to the different direction to the cupid and has no emotion to him even thought he kisses her. According to the slide in the classroom, an image of the Venus of Urbnio by Titian and an image of Olympia by Manet has conflict to itself, " the ideal was broken, But there was a little to replace it except the realism of the prostitute" (pg. 57)

Nowadays, "The attitudes and values which informed that tradition are expressed through other more widely diffused media - advertising, journalism, television" (pg.57).

I totally agree with Dhitiphan and Nattakul that “the men and women were treated differently when they were young”. I love how Berge describes the differences of social presence between men and women, and he says about women that “Her presence is manifest in her gestures, voice, opinions, expressions, clothes, chosen surroundings, taste indeed there is nothing she can do which not contribute to her presence”(46). I think that is really true. Women and men are very different, comparing to women, men have got more opportunities and freedoms to do things they want to do, and that’s a little bit unfair to me, a woman, but that’s the fact.

About the nudity and the nakedness, Berger does point out the good differences between these two things saying “To be naked is to be without disguise….The nude is condemned to never being naked. Nudity is a form of dress”(54). I really do agree with that, when hearing or seeing the word nude I do think of arts like paintings or sculptures unlike naked, I think of people without clothes.


Berger, John. Way of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

From John Berger, “In the art-form of the European nude the painters and spectator-owners were usually men and the persons treated as objects, usually women.” (Page 57)

To my opinion, I don’t think it is dated at all. The above John Berger sentence refers to traditional point of view, but I think those ways of seeing cannot be applied to a great deal today. We are much more familiar with male nudes nowadays in the advertising, in the media and/or even in any other art forms. Often, images of naked men are for men and made by men.

However, “the ideal spectator is always assumed to be male and the image of women is designed to flatter him” (Page 58) is still true in the view that tradition is deeply embedded in our culture and structures us to see most nude images in women, not men.

We cannot deny that the views on men and women are different. In historical period of Art, we barely see paintings that have men in nude as objects. Men and women are raised differently as men seem to be superior to women. Women are pleasure to men, so they have always been taught to continually watch their own appearance. As Berger says “Men act, and women appear, men look at woman. Women watch themselves being looked at” (p.47). It is in every woman’s thought to be visually appreciated by others.

I agree that the reason why female nude are one of the main principle in previous European art is it’s “just a confirmation that we are overwhelmed by the marvelous simplicity of the familiar sexual mechanism.” However, feminism should be state on different perception. They should be treated equally to men and shouldn’t let any sexual being superior to the other.

“ Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a women appear to a man can determine how she will be treated” (p.46).

From my understanding of Berger’s statement, man always see woman’s behavior before deciding how to treat her at what level and also decide how well she should be treated from her behavior . For example, when a man choose a woman to be his wife, from the very first time he saw that girl. He will see her behavior first as well. If that woman does not have good manner he will treat her not like the woman with good manner. Moreover, man should also be a good person, otherwise good woman will not come to his life because our society and our believes have changed. It is not man who is the only one who can choose. Man and woman have the same equal right to present themselves not like on p.47 that says “ men act and women appear” it cannot be said so because we cannot determine what men and women can do by gender, they can do anything equally.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: Penguin, 2008.


I agree with Taentai’s opinion about the difference between nudity and nakedness. I think both of them can be seen in two different ways, sex and art. Nakedness has sexual function, it would seem that nakedness has a positive visual value in its own right : (p.58), while nudity is a form of art. The one who has some knowledge or feelings about art can judge nudity.

As a woman, I felt irritated reading early pages of the third chapter. From the author’s view, woman’s appearance is meant to be judge by men. Women survey everything and turning themselves into objects to be seen, then watching how others treat them. Here he stated a difference between naked and nude:

To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude.(page 54)

I guess the reason why there are many naked woman paintings was because back then the most of the artists were male, and ones stood out were by males’. They painted naked woman to feed their own appetite. We can obviously see it on the way the model in the picture contacts with the spectator, like the way she looks at the painter.
I disagree with the idea on page 60 that “its image will seem banal and it’s the reason why expressive photographs of the naked are rarer than paintings.” It’s just about the morality. The feeling we expect from paint is expression of art from the painter but when it’s in term of photo taken. It becomes a realistic, not just from imagination. Which means the spectator see the model in the sexual attraction way not an art.
No need an experiment on page 64. It’s so true that woman is more delicate. The way we’ve been living tell us that seeing the art work with naked guys in them can give you is another matter.

I think it true, what's Arachapon mention earlier about the author’s view about women’ appearance will be judge by men. “She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men” (Page 46) and treating them differently “Men survey women before treating them” (Page 46) but nowadays I think man’s appearance can be judge by other too, because in the present day every people want to be looking good, not just a women but man too. So judgment can happen to everyone not only for women. Then people treating each other differently from the past which is wrong. People shouldn’t judge other by appearance or gender because every people have their own good, their own idea and attitude.

“Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display” (page 54) make me think about “Nakedness” is not the same word as “Nudity” because Nudity is talking about art which is totally different form Nakedness.

I agree with Dhitiphan and Nattakul about the quote that says “The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (p.45), because in the past and even now, women are still in the lower position then men. In many society, it's kind of unfair that men take control of almost everything and women have to rights to say anything. Men and women are treated differently, for example, when they want to express something. As the text says “If a women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion…If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger…Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake” (p.41).

Nudity in art is different from the nakedness in sexual way. “To be naked is to be without disguise….The nude is condemned to never being naked. Nudity is a form of dress”(p.54). If we look at "nude" in art way, it's not a thing that disgusting, it's a form of art that presents the beauty of human shapes and body. These days people look at nakedness, not in art way, but in an sexual way.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: Penguin, 2008. Print.

My opinion on difference between men and women is similar to the author’s. Men, in general, are physically stronger than women and that the former tends to be more involved in social actions than the latter. However, I disregard gender and judge both males and females by three processes: appearances, skills and virtues. I also believe that both men and women are normally watched at their physical appearances at the first sight. In this sense, physical beings of females are not a cost at all. Indeed, anyone with good personalities who has social skills and loves to help others could make great contributions and bring civilization to society. One would have social power as one would be praised. And everyone has equal rights constrained by law; I do not view that men have an absolute power or women are subordinate to men. One who has good appearances and capabilities and use them well would be treated well, and it can be said that one succeeds in social life. Therefore, to live in the community, it is a norm that people will always survey themselves and keep good images, as well as surveying others.
Nevertheless, I agree with the point in terms of beauty that women usually survey themselves and appear the way they want to be treated by others, especially men. Self-confidence roughly means physical beauty to women; women more desperately want to be the center of attention. A painting of the nude woman holding a mirror is understandable. As there have been continual evidences, I also agree that nude paintings’ owners are usually men and the nude persons are usually women. And there is no doubt that style and emotions that painters want to present via paintings serve men’ tastes.

“The social presence of a woman is different in kind from that of a man” (pg.45). I agree with Dhitiphan and Nataporn that we are grow up different from each other. Adult treated boys and girls differently, So we have different attitude which you can see from the quote in Pg.47 “If woman throws a glass on the floor, is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger...and she would wish to tread by other” but for men if he does the same it will mean to just want to express his anger.
“In the art-form of the European nude the painters and spectator-owners were usually men and the persons treated as objects, usually women.” (Pg. 57)
In my opinion I do not agree with this quote that show how men treaded women like an object. Human are equal female are also have freedom to think and jutting. There will be not separation between people and people.

Berger, John. Way of Seeing. 35 Marylebone High Street, London: British Broadcasting Corporation, 1972. Print.

In these two chapeters, three and four, there are two main points the first point is comaparing nude and nakedness, and the second point is the role of women in European tradition.
Fitst of all, there were big differences between nude, and nakedness. It says "to be naked is simply to be without clothes."(pg.53) but "the nude is a form of art."(pg.53) In my opinion, nude comes from the nakedness, they are not to different things but nude is kind of a developed form of nakedness. The nude is to show the beauty of women's body. By their gesture and pose, which must come together with their nude, adds the beauty of women's body.
The second point is role of the women. The women was a subjects to draw and the men was the spectators. But I believe, women was the source of entertainment for men. Through painting a woman's body, they expressed their feeling, idea, and view. And unlike other arts such as Indian, Persian, Africa, and Pre Columbian art, European art didn't have any sexual theme. It was simply the way of showing the beauty of nude.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Berger saying that, “She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men, is crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life” (p.40). Although women had gain a lot more rights and freedom but women still tend to depend on men judgments in judging themselves. I support Berger statement that “men look at women…and women turns herself into an object and most particularly an object of vision: a sight” (p. 41). In nudity women are seen as sights where it tends to be aware of not the surroundings in the painting but instead the audience looking at the painting. The point of painting nudity after all is for the pleasure of the spectators, most often assumed to be men.

Apart from that, painting nudes, exposing women figures out to paintings and getting the right proportion is not easy. Therefore, Durer believed that the ideal nude is by getting each part of the body from different women and to be composed as one perfect body resulting glorification from men.

I do agree with Chungseong that " nude comes from the nakedness, they are not to different things but nude is kind of a developed form of nakedness. The nude is to show the beauty of women's body. By their gesture and pose, which must come together with their nude, adds the beauty of women's body." .Many of people wonder how differnts between nude and nakedness.In my opinion,It has many similars parts but slightly different that nude is more art than.However, nude is just a view of the people how does they look the nude pictures.My statement is supported by " a nude is not the starting point of a painting,but a way of seeing which the painting achieves"(pg53).In conclution,I think that nude is just a kind of art .I'm not think nude is a pornographic."Nude is a derives from a certain tradition of art"(p53)

This is one of my most favorite quotes in this chapter “To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude. Nakedness reveals itself. Nudity is placed on display.”(pg. 54) The point in this chapter mostly talks about difference between nakedness and nudity. Actually, nakedness is just a state of being without clothing or covering of any kind. But, Nudity shows the quality or state of being nakedness. So nudity shows beauty of body in term of figure and makes it to be placed on display and become art. I also like “To be on display is to have the surface of one’s own skin, the hair of one’s own body, turned into a disguise which, in that situation, can never be discarded. The nude is condemned to never being naked. Nudity is a form of dress.”(pg. 54) These sum up the point that nudity and nakedness is not the same. On display, we see nudity in form of dress in art.

The views on men and women are different from the past until now.Men have more power in physical and mental in the same time women raised to care about their beauty.Men raised very differently to women.Men raised to be more strong and have more superior than women have.From this you can see many sculptures are men in nude and women are on the paintings.Nudity is art.I do agree with Tantai that “nudity and nakedness is not the same”.Nudity is the art form but nakedness but nakedness is something pervert.In the past men are better than women from the sentence“If a women throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion…If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger…Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake” (p.41) this is kind of unfair to me but it’s depend on what people think in many period of time.

As a woman, when I first read these two chapters, I was kind of discontented how Burger says about the differentiation between men and women. However, I can’t deny that this is a fact even nowadays. In the society, men and women are treated differently. Men are generally stronger than women in physical and more powerful in many ways. A man’s presence suggests what he may or may not be able to do to or for you. In contrast to this, a woman’s presence indicates what can or cannot be done to her. Women were taught to care about their beauty and survey themselves. The result is that they want to be appreciated by others – especially men, in her appearance. “The surveyor of woman in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object – and most particularly an object of vision: a sight.” (47).

I totally agree with Taentai and Surasin that, “nudity and nakedness is not the same”. The nude reveals how women have been seen and judged as sights. Women in both nudity and nakedness have no cloths on but it depends on how people see them. They were not naked in their own rights but naked as the (male) viewers saw those. Men usually see those women in the sexual way for satisfying their desire. Unlike nudity, it is one kind of art forms which Burger supports, “To be naked is to be oneself. To be nude is to be seen naked by others and yet not recognized for oneself. A naked body has to be seen as an object in order to become a nude.” (54).As I read through these chapters, nakedness and nudity are different, depends of our ways of seeing.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

I do agree with all of above. ‘Some of friend said that the men and woman were treated differently when they were young’. I agree with this sentence because I have got 2older brother that my parent treated both of him like give him a lot of freedom and do everything by themselves. In the other hands for me is opposite of my brother.
And I really impressed with this sentence ‘ One might simplify this by saying: man act and women appear. Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves. The surveyor of woman in herself is male : the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object- and most particularly an object of vision : a sight’ I agree this sentence because for example when 3girls walking together and met man but the man look at only one from 3girl the other2 girls will think that she is ugly she is not beauty. And the girl who looked by the man will appeared that she is so much shy or something like this.

I totally agree with how different of men and woman in way of life because since we were young 2of this sex will treat in the different way. Man is always stronger than woman. Woman is always cared herself than man. Woman is always cared about beauty and the way to make them looking good.

Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

sincerely ,panchika assavasirisilp

Why is there no female monk or any female priest in the first place? Why women in Thailand, until recently, are not allowed to even have an education? What give the society ability to set rules that women are to be seen as lesser than men? Why is using “her and him” not “him and her” in a sentence is considered bad grammar.

One reason I agree with the book Ways of Seeing by John Berger, which is very true is the inequality of rights a women have in religion. Why does any founder of any major religion always have to be men? Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad, those are the name of great men of the three most known religions of Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam. We can track back to find the answer of why only men are chosen to be “the agent of God” (p.48) back to the belief of the first men and women “Adam and Eve”. Eve had the picked out one apple from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, tried it, and then give it to Adam even though they were warned by God not to (my emphasis, p.47). Women was blamed and forced to be responsible for the idea of why we are struggling in the world we live in. As you can see this is why you only get to see a male priest, because women are sinful and responsible according to a story.

I do agree with the author about the definition of nudity. According to the book nudity is “To be naked is to be without disguise” and “The nude is condemned to never being naked. Nudity is a form of dress” (p.54). To me nudity has the meaning of showing the true self, showing who that person on display really is. No clothes or accessory are there to help identify him or her because that accessory may not define the true self of that person. Nudity is a form of art but its has the negative image because people judge the art by not trying to find what the painting is trying to communicate with the audience but they judge it in a sexual way.

We can now see many female becoming leaders of the country, including Thailand. The idea of any women becoming a leader of the nation is impossible in the old days. Now due to feminism act women are seen as more of an equal to men. What determine a person are no longer “mainly” the sex and appearances, but the ability and characteristic of that person.

Reference
Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.

Reading these two chapters makes me feel the same way as Nicha. I was discontented but cannot deny on the fact about the differentiation between male and female. It is true that the appearance of men shows what he's capable of doing while the appearance of woman only points out how she could be treated even though women deserve more rights and freedom regarding to what Berger says on page 46, "Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated". I also agree to the statement, "To be nose is to be seen naked by others". I think the distinction between nudity and nakedness is only judged by the way the spectator, mostly assumed to be male, sees it. Even though both nudity and nakedness appear to have no clothes on, people sees nudity as a kind of art but still, after all to me, painting nudity is just for the pleasure of men.


Berger, John. Ways of Seeing. London: British Broadcasting Corporation and Penguin Books, 2008. Print.